I advise everyone to follow Matt Bowen

[gilesfan]

www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFL-Sunday-notes-Cruz-stuns-the-Redskins-4501.html

1. Cruz beats the Redskins “bracket” look: As I have said before, Cruz makes his money in the slot. No different on Sunday when Eli Manning hit the WR for 77-yard TD that put the Giants ahead for good. Washington was playing what I see as a “slice” call (2-on-1) vs. Cruz. Smart to take away the option route, plus the deep dig, curl, etc. However, when the safety sits for an outside breaking cut—with the Nickel CB playing hard to the inside—you still have to account for the straight vertical seam. Can't get split in that situation. The Giants had the perfect route call to the beat the “slice” or “bracket” look from the Redskins’ secondary in the 27-23 win.

[milliondollarslim]

The other guys get paid to play and coach as well. The giants in addition to having excellent talent have a excellent staff. Ours is good as well..thus the close game. Their talent is much better.

[Carnack]

Best interpretation yet on the coverage, imo.

The Giants found Victor Cruz on the UDFA scrap heap of the 2010 Draft. They just got lucky.

And this:

6. RGIII's skill set: Even in the loss, you have to acknowledge the special talent of the Redskins’ QB. I like what Washington is doing from a game plan perspective with Griffin (Pistol, Zone Read, WR Screen Game, Play Pass, etc.), plus look at the drive to take the 4th quarter lead. This is another example of RGIII making plays because of his skill set. The 4th down pass where he extended the pocket, the scramble for an explosive gain and the TD throw (with perfect ball placement) to Santana Moss vs. pressure. The rookie plays with a mature style when he is under stress.

Here is a working link:


www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFL-Sunday-notes-Cruz-stuns-the-Redskins-4501.html

[Biggest]

The Giants had the perfect route call to the beat the “slice” or “bracket” look from the Redskins’ secondary in the 27-23 win.


So the Giants' play call beat the Skins. I would say Bowen agrees with me - and Hoge.

Am I missing something, because I really don't think I am.

Oct 22, 2012 8:51:35 GMT -5 gilesfan said:

www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFL-Sunday-notes-Cruz-stuns-the-Redskins-4501.html

1. Cruz beats the Redskins “bracket” look: As I have said before, Cruz makes his money in the slot. No different on Sunday when Eli Manning hit the WR for 77-yard TD that put the Giants ahead for good. Washington was playing what I see as a “slice” call (2-on-1) vs. Cruz. Smart to take away the option route, plus the deep dig, curl, etc. However, when the safety sits for an outside breaking cut—with the Nickel CB playing hard to the inside—you still have to account for the straight vertical seam. Can't get split in that situation. The Giants had the perfect route call to the beat the “slice” or “bracket” look from the Redskins’ secondary in the 27-23 win.

[44DSL]

You are not missing anything. Haslett out-coached again.

[Carnack]

Just so I understand things here....

What you are saying 44 is that if we had All-Pros at every position of our Secondary, across the board, in that situation the defensive alignment called by Haslett on that play would:

a.) Miserably fail; and,
b.) The personnel had nothing to do with the end result.

The Defensive play call was the sole culprit for failure.

Right?

[PSUscott06]

Oct 22, 2012 16:27:21 GMT -5 Biggest said:

The Giants had the perfect route call to the beat the “slice” or “bracket” look from the Redskins’ secondary in the 27-23 win.


So the Giants' play call beat the Skins. I would say Bowen agrees with me - and Hoge.

Am I missing something, because I really don't think I am.

I guess it depends what you mean by being right. The Skins coverage wasn't "don't cover Cruz deep".

Based on the 5 minutes I've spent researching bracket coverage, the answer remains that there were two players to cover Cruz.

runcodhit.blogspot.com/2010/10/bracket-coverage-part-i-basics.html
Versus a vertical route by the WR, both players essentially cover him inside and out eliminating any mismatch.



No matter what the coverage was, either 41 or 26 was supposed to be on the go route by Cruz. Neither of them was. Somebody got beat.

And we keep getting back to the same place. Do we blame the players for sucking, or do we blame the coaches for putting the sucky players in position to suck immensely?

[Carnack]

Lipstick on a Pig.

[meddle]

6. RGIII's skill set: Even in the loss, you have to acknowledge the special talent of the Redskins’ QB. I like what Washington is doing from a game plan perspective with Griffin (Pistol, Zone Read, WR Screen Game, Play Pass, etc.), plus look at the drive to take the 4th quarter lead. This is another example of RGIII making plays because of his skill set. The 4th down pass where he extended the pocket, the scramble for an explosive gain and the TD throw (with perfect ball placement) to Santana Moss vs. pressure. The rookie plays with a mature style when he is under stress.

RG3 is one of those guys that does better under pressure. I don't know if it's maturity or just something god-given that someone has or doesn't have.

[joewash]

Gegg Williams knew the benefit of a centerfielder on the back. Sean Taylor played often 30 yards deep and played him as the Ravens play Reed or the Steelers play Palamadu. Last line of defense, but quick to come up but nothing gets past deep.

You guys know I watch safety play. Actually our safeties deep have been atrocious since Sean's last game against the Eagles before Sean got shot. I watched that game from the stands and even though we lost on a late Westbrook run, Sean was special.

So Atogwe was supposed to replace the skill set but was too hurt and too soft and got cut. Then we rolled the dice on Tanard Jackson and he never saw the field due to the weed factor.

Gomes will never be the answer. Doesn't have the instincts for the job. Madieu Williams is a 9 year vet cut by 3 other teams because he makes bonehead plays like the Cruz reception.

So we need a FS. Badly. Yeah we need a CB, but we need a centerfielder just as much. And for those that think Hall is the answer, he isn't.

[Biggest]

I would blame both - and we're all imperfect.

It just rubbed me the wrong way when Mike, still hot in the immediate aftermath of the loss, dismissively answered a question put to him on that play that 'we had him double covered.'

To me, that response from Mike implied we had them - the DBs - helping each other out on the play and therefore in a position to succeed, and therefore questioning the questioner, indirectly, as to what more could anyone have expected his coaches to do on that scoring play.

Cruz certainly 'made a play' - and for some reason, I sensed from Mike's response to the question that the game winning play he and Eli made was one Mike felt the players should have prevented in that situation.

And I don't entirely disagree with that, but the play call by the defense, leaning toward the Giants' and Cruz's tendency to run to the outside flat from that formation (again, per Hoge's film breakdown), was less than an optimal coaching choice to defend Cruz in that spot during that stage of the game.

When there is that little time left, and you have our DBs, you go prevent all the way, prevent the easy TD, and hope you hold them to a FG attempt that forces OT - allowing you to live to play another play - or misses and you get the hell out of the swamps of Jersey with a 'W.'

Maybe I've misread Mike's response / demeanor, but I think that we blew it - coaches and players - and their coaches and players aced it. And it's why they have 2 Super Bowl rings in 5 years and got them by going on the road, playing large, and making Tom Brady mortal.

Oct 22, 2012 17:17:54 GMT -5 PSUscott06 said:

Oct 22, 2012 16:27:21 GMT -5 Biggest said:

The Giants had the perfect route call to the beat the “slice” or “bracket” look from the Redskins’ secondary in the 27-23 win.


So the Giants' play call beat the Skins. I would say Bowen agrees with me - and Hoge.

Am I missing something, because I really don't think I am.

I guess it depends what you mean by being right. The Skins coverage wasn't "don't cover Cruz deep".

Based on the 5 minutes I've spent researching bracket coverage, the answer remains that there were two players to cover Cruz.

runcodhit.blogspot.com/2010/10/bracket-coverage-part-i-basics.html
Versus a vertical route by the WR, both players essentially cover him inside and out eliminating any mismatch.



No matter what the coverage was, either 41 or 26 was supposed to be on the go route by Cruz. Neither of them was. Somebody got beat.

And we keep getting back to the same place. Do we blame the players for sucking, or do we blame the coaches for putting the sucky players in position to suck immensely?

[CapitalD56]

Oct 22, 2012 18:07:47 GMT -5 joewash said:

Gegg Williams knew the benefit of a centerfielder on the back. Sean Taylor played often 30 yards deep and played him as the Ravens play Reed or the Steelers play Palamadu. Last line of defense, but quick to come up but nothing gets past deep.

You guys know I watch safety play. Actually our safeties deep have been atrocious since Sean's last game against the Eagles before Sean got shot. I watched that game from the stands and even though we lost on a late Westbrook run, Sean was special.

So Atogwe was supposed to replace the skill set but was too hurt and too soft and got cut. Then we rolled the dice on Tanard Jackson and he never saw the field due to the weed factor.

Gomes will never be the answer. Doesn't have the instincts for the job. Madieu Williams is a 9 year vet cut by 3 other teams because he makes bonehead plays like the Cruz reception.

So we need a FS. Badly. Yeah we need a CB, but we need a centerfielder just as much. And for those that think Hall is the answer, he isn't.

Spot on, Joewash. Player-wise, safety ought to be #1 priority.

[2cents]

Hopefully safeties...plural we need so much more than just one.

[CapitalD56]

Oct 22, 2012 18:34:44 GMT -5 Biggest said:

When there is that little time left, and you have our DBs, you go prevent all the way, prevent the easy TD, and hope you hold them to a FG attempt that forces OT - allowing you to live to play another play - or misses and you get the hell out of the swamps of Jersey with a 'W.'

But, as I have claimed in another thread, there is a real danger to that. If we let them methodically go down the field as a prevent would we risk them scoring a TD with too little time left for our offense to score a TD. At least by allowing a quick TD, it gave our offense an opportunity to respond with a TD of our own.

It is now more clear to me than on gameday that the second TD pass to Moss was scored too soon/early. We gave the Giants too much time to come back.

Of course, I blame our defense more than anything, but the turnovers some of which can be blamed on our saint Griffin, were also the culprit.

[PSUscott06]

Oct 22, 2012 19:16:49 GMT -5 CapitalD56 said:

It is now more clear to me than on gameday that the second TD pass to Moss was scored too soon/early. We gave the Giants too much time to come back.

Right, but pretending like a coach can pick and choose exactly when to score 7 points is crazy (unless you're on the 1 yard line or something). If you're losing the game with 2 minutes to go, you want a TD any way that you can possibly get it.

If we want to think of it that way, really Eli scored too early as well. That was more than enough time from the Skins to march down the field the way that they had been playing at the end of the 4th.

[2cents]

You lose all credability when you use the phrase saint Griffin. There is no need for that, we all know you don't like him, but he is here so you might as well get used to it. And if you haven't noticed is playing pretty well for the team you are supposed to be rooting for. Why that doesn't make you happy is beyond me.

[gilesfan]

Oct 22, 2012 16:27:21 GMT -5 Biggest said:

The Giants had the perfect route call to the beat the “slice” or “bracket” look from the Redskins’ secondary in the 27-23 win.


So the Giants' play call beat the Skins. I would say Bowen agrees with me - and Hoge.

Am I missing something, because I really don't think I am.

Oct 22, 2012 8:51:35 GMT -5 gilesfan said:

www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFL-Sunday-notes-Cruz-stuns-the-Redskins-4501.html

1. Cruz beats the Redskins “bracket” look: As I have said before, Cruz makes his money in the slot. No different on Sunday when Eli Manning hit the WR for 77-yard TD that put the Giants ahead for good. Washington was playing what I see as a “slice” call (2-on-1) vs. Cruz. Smart to take away the option route, plus the deep dig, curl, etc. However, when the safety sits for an outside breaking cut—with the Nickel CB playing hard to the inside—you still have to account for the straight vertical seam. Can't get split in that situation. The Giants had the perfect route call to the beat the “slice” or “bracket” look from the Redskins’ secondary in the 27-23 win.

I read that as Williams can't get split and has to account for vertical seam

[Biggest]

Knowing Williams' limitations in deep coverage, going up against the lethal Manning to Cruz combo, I just don't know why he wasn't lined up deeper to cover the vertical seam. At this point, we just have to hope the team either doesn't put him into a spot he can't defend, or that we acquire a player - or develop on already here - to take over as the FS starter sooner rather than later.

Oct 22, 2012 19:26:12 GMT -5 gilesfan said:

Oct 22, 2012 16:27:21 GMT -5 Biggest said:

The Giants had the perfect route call to the beat the “slice” or “bracket” look from the Redskins’ secondary in the 27-23 win.


So the Giants' play call beat the Skins. I would say Bowen agrees with me - and Hoge.

Am I missing something, because I really don't think I am.

I read that as Williams can't get split and has to account for vertical seam

[Rat Boy]

Oct 22, 2012 19:35:48 GMT -5 Biggest said:

Knowing Williams' limitations in deep coverage, going up against the lethal Manning to Cruz combo, I just don't know why he wasn't lined up deeper to cover the vertical seam.

Because from everything I am reading, Cruz has never run a fly route from the slot this season.

Haslett played the percentages.

[gilesfan]

Could have been Haslett or Williams that assumed it would be a deep out. But Hall was in the vicinity and Wilson was trailing.

Bracket coverage, by design, doesn't say let the guy run by you

[jlachey]

Oct 22, 2012 19:26:12 GMT -5 gilesfan said:

Oct 22, 2012 16:27:21 GMT -5 Biggest said:

The Giants had the perfect route call to the beat the “slice” or “bracket” look from the Redskins’ secondary in the 27-23 win.


So the Giants' play call beat the Skins. I would say Bowen agrees with me - and Hoge.

Am I missing something, because I really don't think I am.

I read that as Williams can't get split and has to account for vertical seam

Edited after re-reading Bowen's statement:

As someone who has coached secondary for 12 years now, I might pull a little bit of rank on this subject...

Don't overthink this one. It's either a 2-deep shell with man coverage underneath or some kind of bracket coverage. In either case, Wilson shouldn;t have let Cruz turn his hip within 5 yards and get that far past him right away. More importantly, Madea's Family Reunion had his heels stuck in the grass as the slot receiver (in this case one of the biggest vertical threats in the NFL) is clearly vertical after 8 yards.

Bracket or 2-under should be fine on a vertical seam. Bowen says the Giants had the perfect play call. I mean, sure, but I think even he would say that with 2-men assigned to Cruz it's not a 77-yard house call.

The safety's read is easy in a 2-deep. If the slot is vertical, you have all of him. Just horrible play by him. If it's a bracket coverage, even more inexcusable. Madea's Trip to the Waiver Wire should have his eyes on Cruz the whole time. Yet he went statue. Horrible.

That said, the coaches (Morris and Has) do share responsibility here. Football isn't chess or a video game. You don't just put an X over an O and call it a day. Something isn't getting through. It's either a motivation or a communication issue on that play in particular.

[gilesfan]

www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012102100/2012/REG7/redskins@giants#menu=highlights&tab=recap


Very hard on Wilson and Williams

[guru]

Well, Wilson got beat by a step or two. In my opinion, that's not unforgivable.

But the safety's responsibility is deep, and regardless of the play call (bracket coverage, whatever you want to call it), you still have to get over the top.

My opinion is still that Williams had a choice, and he spent too long looking back at the QB on the play.

My biggest problem with Williams is that he seems to have an exaggerated opinion of his own speed. It's showed up on many plays this season. He's broken up some downfield passes this season, so he's not quite the bum that some make him out to be.

TWO things need to happen. Coaches shouldn't put him in a position to have to make plays he's not capable of, and Williams shouldn't put himself in that position, either.

It's not an either/or. They need to get on the same page.

[2cents]

I think the whole debate on what D was called is somewhat unecessary. Williams is a vet safety. No matter what was called, at no point should he be thinking it is ok for the reciever to get past him. No matter what is called, keep the play in front of you.

[Biggest]

Boy, I want focus on capability - not tendency so much.

Cruz can rip your heart out from any spot on the field. He's a known deep threat. We know they want to chuck it deep to get the points and lead back ASAP in the spot. How was he able to go get it untouched and so poorly covered? Was that all on the players, or were they aligned imperfectly with the bracket coverage that was called to gaurd against the film tendency the coaches game planned for?

The 'Cover O' playing the percentages had blown up in Haslett's face on more than one occassion (most infamously last year in Big D against Dez Bryant and Tony Romo). How did that work out?

I don't know, plenty of blame to go around and issues to be addressed / fixed.


Sigh ....

Oct 22, 2012 19:37:12 GMT -5 Rat Boy said:

Oct 22, 2012 19:35:48 GMT -5 Biggest said:

Knowing Williams' limitations in deep coverage, going up against the lethal Manning to Cruz combo, I just don't know why he wasn't lined up deeper to cover the vertical seam.

Because from everything I am reading, Cruz has never run a fly route from the slot this season.

Haslett played the percentages.

[Biggest]

That is what Walker and Mitchell, former Skins' Super Bowl winners, said time and again yesterday on the radio.

My biggest problem with Williams was that he froze and appeared to be flatfooted in that situation, allowing Cruz to get up to cruising speed and not so much as being able to lay a glove on him. That looked like a Pop Warner blown coverage, and Cruz made Williams look like a little boy who got caught with his pants down.

Oct 23, 2012 9:35:17 GMT -5 2cents said:

I think the whole debate on what D was called is somewhat unecessary. Williams is a vet safety. No matter what was called, at no point should he be thinking it is ok for the reciever to get past him. No matter what is called, keep the play in front of you.

[bigstink9]

Williams and Wilson gambled that Cruz was gonna run a slant and go. They just guessed wrong.

[dancingbear]

Oct 22, 2012 18:07:47 GMT -5 joewash said:

Gegg Williams knew the benefit of a centerfielder on the back. Sean Taylor played often 30 yards deep and played him as the Ravens play Reed or the Steelers play Palamadu. Last line of defense, but quick to come up but nothing gets past deep.

You guys know I watch safety play. Actually our safeties deep have been atrocious since Sean's last game against the Eagles before Sean got shot. I watched that game from the stands and even though we lost on a late Westbrook run, Sean was special.

Not to nit pick, but Sean went out of that game in the 3rd with the knee injury. he wasn't on the field when westbrook ran wild on us with that screen pass. if not for the knee injury tackling the eagles TE, I believe we would've won that game. up until he left the game , the eagles O was well bottled up.

So Atogwe was supposed to replace the skill set but was too hurt and too soft and got cut. Then we rolled the dice on Tanard Jackson and he never saw the field due to the weed factor.

Gomes will never be the answer. Doesn't have the instincts for the job. Madieu Williams is a 9 year vet cut by 3 other teams because he makes bonehead plays like the Cruz reception.

So we need a FS. Badly. Yeah we need a CB, but we need a centerfielder just as much. And for those that think Hall is the answer, he isn't.

[skinsfanvmi79]

Oct 22, 2012 19:10:05 GMT -5 CapitalD56 said:

Oct 22, 2012 18:07:47 GMT -5 joewash said:

Gegg Williams knew the benefit of a centerfielder on the back. Sean Taylor played often 30 yards deep and played him as the Ravens play Reed or the Steelers play Palamadu. Last line of defense, but quick to come up but nothing gets past deep.

You guys know I watch safety play. Actually our safeties deep have been atrocious since Sean's last game against the Eagles before Sean got shot. I watched that game from the stands and even though we lost on a late Westbrook run, Sean was special.

So Atogwe was supposed to replace the skill set but was too hurt and too soft and got cut. Then we rolled the dice on Tanard Jackson and he never saw the field due to the weed factor.

Gomes will never be the answer. Doesn't have the instincts for the job. Madieu Williams is a 9 year vet cut by 3 other teams because he makes bonehead plays like the Cruz reception.

So we need a FS. Badly. Yeah we need a CB, but we need a centerfielder just as much. And for those that think Hall is the answer, he isn't.

Spot on, Joewash. Player-wise, safety ought to be #1 priority.

Don't disagree with putting the priority on FS---but we need help big time at both starting CB positions also--we may get lucky and fill either the FS or one of the CB position out of the second round in the 2013 draft--and maybe we can afford one top secondary player in FA---but I doubt we solve the secondary problems in one off-season---with a lack of first round selections in the next two drafts and cap hell lasting one more off-season there will be only so much we can do in one off-season---we also need to upgrade the RT position and continue to work on depth on the OL and we need a true #1 WR---still lots of work to do---I just hope Mike and Bruce can do enough next off-season so that we can realistically compete for a play-off slot--every season you waste a talent like RGIII is tragic IMO

[davewill]

You know whats hilarious? M. Williams was way better than Bowen. GOD i hated that guy> Matt Bowen and Adam Archuletta. Imagine if we had that safety combo? hey it could always be worse people